For or Against Referendum 1
I'm Voting Yes - Here is a couple clips that explain it well. Please comment if you have an opinion on this highly debatable topic.
Wednesday, October 24, 2007
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36 comments:
So does this mean you want to send your kids to a private/charter school.
No, it hopefully means class sizes in public school will be a tad smaller. (but my buddy Jim has his kids in Charter and I believe they are ahead of public taught kids)
Good job, I have always liked the sound of ref 1 also!
For me this issue is about choice. I think that parents should have a choice in their child's education. I believe that my children can succeed regardless of where they are sent because I will be an informed and motivated parent in my kids' education. I will likely send my children to public school, but I like Referendum 1 because it provides me the option, as a parent, to make that choice for my children. I don't like that the government pretty much monopolizes education at this point. I'm with you and will be voting for Ref 1.
It's always hard to argue against The Stossel, and that KSL clip didn't do opponents to Ref 1 any favors.
The US already spends more $$ per pupil than any other nation in the world and we're falling behind. It is time to try something new. The status quo has failed.
Someday Virginia will follow suit and I'll be able to vote for vouchers too.
I am definitely oppossed to vouchers they are nothing but a tax break for the wealthy. Parent's who want to send their kids to private schools will do so anyway and poor kids will still not be able to afford to go to private school. The bill just takes away more money from the public schools. I would rather give my tax money to the schools.
I believe strongly in the referendum and that it should be passed. The referendum does put more money back into the school system and the large fiscal benefits are actually given to the lower and middle income families. For higher income families, there is little incentive when given a $500 voucher. That is small for a wealthy family so the benefit goes largely to the lower and middle income families. Most private schools have a cost of around $4,000 and so it is affordable for several families to spend the extra $1,000 to send a child to private school that the $3,000 voucher would not cover. I for one will probably still send my child to public school, however creating competition is very healthy for any sector. Being able to compete and provide a better system is the beauty of our country. You can see from the downfall of other countries what a "communistic" structure of not allowing private competition eventually will become completely inefficient. You can see this already in the public school system. Currently, in the State of Utah we are spending 54.6% of the total state tax revenues on public education. This percentage has grown consecutively for the past several years. There needs to be a correction and competition to enter before the tax burden becomes to great. There is not a lot of effort going into making systems more effiecent in the public school system which needs to happen to save tax dollars. My last comment would merely be to go and read the actual referendum. Most people are making decisions based on the media and advertising, and frankly both sides of the media have scewed the facts. The referendum is only a couple pages long and by reading the referendum I think anyone will be able to cut through the bias and make an educated decision. After all, that is our responsibility as a society. You can click on the following link to go to the actual bill, which by the way is our current law.
http://le.utah.gov/~2007/bills/hbillenr/hb0148.htm
Having been a teacher for many years I am opposed to Ref 1 (vouchers). If the students goes to a private school the state isn't going to send any money for him to the district. All money comes from enrollment in the district, hence no student, no money!
In my eyes its really about choices for the parents though. I am not a fan of monopolys.And Brett hit it on the head. Its amazing how technology has cont. to grow, by competition.
Don't you already have a choice? You could choose to send your kids to private school now if you want to.
And wasn't competition the whole goal of No Child Left Behind, you can send your kids to a different school if your school had low test scores. We all know what a disaster that was.
Dan and Erin Langford say:
True, our opinion may be slightly biased; both of Erin's parents (and her grandfather) are public school teachers. However I have tried to base my thoughts on hearing debates from both sides. I am against vouchers, and Erin is as well. I think we both have differing level of disagreement as well as reasons for opposing vouchers. Here are some of them:
Funding: Both sides claim their solution will keep more money in the public schools. However down the road and in the end the legislature gives money according to how many students are in the public schools (that's why I was initially discouraged from taking so many college courses while in high school) - so if we are encouraging people to leave, funding ultimately will be reflected. Maybe the nation needs to rethink a little about how it funds schools.
If it's about class size (which for most people it really is) building more schools may do more, faster, for reducing class size.
Choice: I really think it’s great that this program would give parents more choice on how their children are educated. I just recently took an economics class - perfect competition! Lets be realistic though, how many people are really going to take this and run - especially in Utah. Even Scott and Brett said that they won’t send their kids to a private school though they favor a voucher. And the families that do take advantage are those that can still afford to pay the difference from the voucher to fulfill private tuition. I personally don't really see this helping any "inner city" type schools. (Do we have those in Utah?) If anything it may just encourage the fence sitters to go private leaving the lesser-income behind in the public schools. Unintentional segregation based on income? Maybe, maybe not.
Credentials: true there are some standards private schools are held up to, however they are a lot more lenient than I would like. If you are using my tax dollars to fund a private education, I would at least like to know that the teachers and schools are on a certain level of competency. I don't think private school teachers are even required to have a college education degree. If they haven't even completed higher education in their field, how are they going to use my tax dollars to get more children to complete higher education for their fields? Doesn’t make sense.
Comparing public and private school performance is like apples and oranges. Private schools can legally have restrictions on admittance. There are a lot of private schools that won’t admit the handicapped or challenged. If they are hand picking students, of course test scores will be high and it will look like vouchers are working. If public schools are struggling financially then they will struggle helping the students that really need help. Public schools will need to be named resource schools.
A public school cannot deny education for anybody, so they have no control on their classes. One year they get a bunch of English as a second language migrant children or military families and of course test scores will drop.
There are also concerns about who is funding what campaign for what reason. For all we know some of the big names like Huntsman and Bishop could have friends or relatives running private schools, or they were taken to a really nice steak dinner (or two) by a few lobbyists. I do know that the editorial board of KSL, a pretty trusted organization, is pretty much against vouchers. Then again, anybody could be in bed with anybody.
In the end I personally think vouchers can be a good thing, maybe some details need to be rethought. Maybe we do vote them in and wait the five years till evaluation and really look at the hard core numbers. Maybe that needs to be a part of the program, every five years we vote if we want to keep them. The possibility of loosing them may fuel some innovation in those running the "program".
If we really want to change the public school system I think we can apply principles found in vouchers (and other programs) and apply them to the infrastructure that we already have. Choice and competition. Let a child go to whatever public school he wants. (Which you can do in Utah, some of this may be more applicable in other states) since funding is based on attendance (right now, and as stated early might need to be rethought) make the company (schools) compete for customers (students). Schools will become innovative. Let the school districts fire a teacher. If they don't perform, get rid of them. Promote that competition among the teachers. So the individual teachers are being innovative, creative. I think the union is good to be sure the all teachers are paid fairly, equally which is needed in our current system. If it were not for the union then some schools would buy out good teachers (probably schools near the Yankee stadium). If we run the staff of a school more like a company all the sudden we see the importance of having good managers - the districts will be firing the worst principals and getting managers in there, getting people who get things done. And the cycle continues up the chain.
However I think what you would find happens around these parts is everybody would just go to the closest school because it’s easier. People in Clinton would stop driving past Clearfield high to go to Northridge.
Is the Utah Public Education system really broken? Maybe other states, but why are we trying so hard to fix it. I want to know how many people plan on taking advantage of the vouchers. And I want to know what is so wrong with the current system in Utah, besides classes too full.
(That kind of sounded like a campaign speech -- vote for Dan!)
To anonymous--
After watching that second clip I posted. America is STUPID... why can't we learn from the other countrys and apply that into our system.
Who is anonymous anyways? I won't hate you, I love your comments. I have an open mind.
I am voting "NO" to vouchers! I strongly believe in the public school system and feel that vouchers would weaken our schools. I know the system needs help, but feel that our money and efforts should go towards improving public education.
I am voting NO to vouchers. A lot of the points I agree with were posted earlier by Dan, so I won't repeat. But one other point is that reducing class sizes still won't reduce costs to run a public school. The money saved won't be as substantial "per student" as stated in the Referendum. The same classroom, whether it holds 20 or 30 students will still have the same bills to cover such as heating, electric, etc... District school buses will still be used and the impact of fewer students won't be enough to cut routes and the number of drivers and buses used. If you take money to private schools, where will the money needed for these operational costs come from?... The students enrolled in public schools. If it's about money back in the public student's pockets, the numbers just don't prove the model presented. I am all about choice and equality between public and private schools, but I think there has to be a better solution.
I'm surprised at how entitled people seem to feel in spending other people's money.
If I choose to pull my child because I feel the education offered at their school is substandard, why should I not have the choice to use the tax dollars set aside to educate my child elsewhere? What logic is there in continuing to prop up an institution that is failing? Better to let it fail and another take its place than to continue spitting out mediocrity.
If you watch the 20/20 segment it is abundantly obvious that more money does not a better school system make. However as demonstrated by America's colleges and universities competition for students and their tuition dollars has created the preeminent education system in the world.
One last point, according to KSL’s numbers, vouchers are a miniscule drop in the state education budget. The only way they would make a noticeable dent were if large numbers of parents began to exercise them, and if that happened would it not be a sign they were working?
And Anonymous...Buck up and use your real name already.
I am strongly apposed to ref 1. I am however on board for ref 2 which gives us as parents the ability to choose what our kids will eat for school lunch, and give us the option to attend said school lunch on mac and cheese day. By the way our country is being neutered by people who want all things equal...just saying. "there's nothing as unequal as treating unequals as equal." GO HILLARY!
Here's the thing...
ref 3 could be a good option to. I'm all about home skooling now. I fill that as parentz we should be smart enuf to educate are children in all subjecz espeshally math 1010. I went to pubic skool and turned out fine, but i oneder it i cood have achieved more if i was home skooled. GO ROMNEY!
I am going to have to side with Scott Goode... holy crap that is some funny stuff right there.
I feel it is my duty as a taxpayer that we hold politicians accountable. I have nothing against private schools. If you want to send your kids to a private school fine and that's your choice but I don't think that taxpayers should subsidize it. I pay taxes and care about how MY money gets spent.
If I want to send my kids to a private school I should have to pay the tuition because I would be CHOOSING to send them there. Why should the government give me free money?
The ENTIRE community benefits from having an educated populous. If you cut funding at already understaffed public schools it hurts everybody especially the poor and disabled. How can they better their lives and go to college without good schools? I don't know, maybe you want to live in a community where it's average member is highly uneducated. If vouchers go through I worry about the state of the school system by the time I have children that would go there.Even if my children don't go there, I will take comfort in knowing that my tax dollars have educated those who cannot choose anything else.
Thanks to Barbara and the Johnson's for backing us up. I 100% agree with your comments. Vouchers will weaken schools and that hurts all of us especially my future children.
That is why I signed the petition and am voting no. But I guess we are all STUPID because we are a product of the American public education system.
I am a grandmother having once served on a Board of Education in Canada. As I learned more about the disparity of opportunities and naturally wanting more for our 6 children, we sent 3 of them to a private school. In time, we learned that we were supporting a kind of subculture and grew weary of the parent politics dominating the educational experience. For a year I home-schooled 5 of our children. It was fantastic fun, learning all the time from morn until evening, and traveling with DAD! But our eldest's adolescence brought an end to it as he ached to be with peers his own age. I was worried going back into the public school system would traumatize my children, but my consensus is that the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM is the best option going for a well-rounded education. I could not have known that or appreciated it as clearly had I not gone through our own trial and errors. Since then, other parents of private and home-school students have followed with the same feeling. No matter where you live, or what your children's opportunities, nothing predicts academic success more than how education is fostered and valued at home. Born of ethnic origin, I've seen and known poverty, and gratefully I've also known prosperity. As a student of public school systems in Utah, New York and California I made (and continue to make) friends from all walks of life. I believe I have learned tolerance, appreciation and how to distinguish genuine sincerity. I did not only learn to read from books, but I learned how to read PEOPLE. There are a lot of wonderful people in Utah, but on our visits I can't help but notice more and more educated idiots/ie. "nerds" and fairy princesses who can't survive in the schoolyard or in the real world. They have been raised and coddled in a bubble. (Perhaps this is why so many gather to Utah...? not out of faith, but out of fear!) Truly, I too have noticed more thugs, as well but they are as much Utah-bred as they are transplants from other states/countries. I understand that no one wants to send their child into an unsafe environment, or anywhere that is going to be a waste of time focused more on crowd control than on learning. I think the biggest problem in education is lack of nourishment from home and over-stimulation of media. The simplest formula I can think of is, if your child is going without, make up the difference at home; and if their friends are going without, make up the difference in the community, or pack extra in their lunches for friends. If as much energy was directed to helping public schools deliver better services to children, as is spent on politicking in Utah, it really would be a happy valley. I don't criticize Utah political activists--they are some of the best anywhere, I'm only saying whatever the outcome, take it further. Let your hearts and energy follow your voice and your vote for vouchers, or not! I think too many people have the attitude of wanting the best for their own, and too bad for ill-begotten masses; or "just teach my kid for me, ok?" They lend their hand in service projects in faraway lands and even 'other' neighborhoods, but live and work side-by-side in troubled areas? Hmm, so much for being the'salt of the earth' or loving (as 'leaven' that lifts) our neighbor as ourselves. Good luck with all that! EC
If you want your tax dollars to go to the public education system then according to the voucher system you just have to send your kids to a public school...Problem solved.
But what we're talking about here is you telling other tax payers how their taxes should be spent.
And yes compared to other countries we are stupid. Test scores don't lie, we are falling behind despite the fact we already spend more per pupil than any other country in the world. Throwing more money at the problem won't fix it. Getting more bang for our buck will. I don't think the market has the answers for everything, but it is clear our little experiment in socialized education needs some tweaking.
One last thought, what if we took vouchers to an extreme and gave every child in Utah $6,000 to spend on an accredited institution of their choosing? The teachers and schools that performed would flourish while the ones that didn't would close as parents would move their kids elsewhere. Poor kids would have the buying power to pay for private schools and parents would have some incentive to ride the schools because it's now 'their' money. I just don't see much of a downside.
Anonymous - Really did you have to turn this into a Utah/Mormon bash? Lame
I guess that is why there is going to be a vote, let the taxpayers decide how they want to spend their tax dollars. That is the power of democracy.
Currently under No Child Left Behind if your child's school has low test scores you can transfer them to a school that has higher scores. The scores of each school are published every year. IMHO NCLB is a horrible law but test scores are the only thing that matters, right?
NCLB is a federal program trying to administer a local problem. I agree with you that it is a terrible idea just for that reason alone.
How would you propose we measure our children's success or failure if not by test scores, but that is beside the point. If a parent wants to place their child in a school based on historical test scores that is their business. Additionally if a parent wants to place their child in a school because it has a music or drama program and their current one doesn't that should be their choice to make without having to pay a financial penalty for doing so.
WOW, I have enjoyed the comments but when "EC" / anonymous starts to bash on "utah mormons" then it has gone to far. Please settle down people.
I just dont want peoples feelings hurt, but keep it comeing, I love it.
I think that there should be guidelines for when the vouchers are used... such as special conditions.. I like that vouchers because they give those families who have a lower income to use it if their student needs more than the public school can give them. (I hope that makes sense!!)
Here's what I'm thinking.
Does anyone pay $3000 dollars a year in taxes per child? $500 dollars per child per year? Does that make sense? So that's why this is an important vote. Someone who takes a voucher is not just taking their tax money where they want to- they are taking other peoples money as well.
kanga5 - That does make sense, but fortunately we aren't taxed per child. Quite the opposite actually, you get a tax break for having a child. It's the government's way of encouraging us to have kids.
The money for vouchers would come out of the state general fund which in turn comes from your income / sales / gas taxes (I believe).
Anyway, I think I've burned enough family bridges for now...Fortunately I live out of state so it'll be a while before ya'll can shun me at the next family party. ;) I keed, I keed.
Best of luck with your vote.
Jason,
I think you will be ok at the next family party.
I think the Ref 1 will be great for the state but I am not seeing it being voted in. To many people get swayed on the Ads and what not.
I had a personal email discussion with Brett who is For Ref 1 and made a good point in which half of the people that are against keep saying isn't true.
"Once again read the referendum. The money goes in for the first 5 years even if that student has left the public school system. Funding is not based on a per student basis or we would have world war III on the hill. I am personal friends with the Director of the State budget and basically they will look at what they did last year and it is pretty much a given that they will not fund less than the year before and then based upon how the state did that year with tax revenues make the decision to give a little more or to keep it the same."
So I think I am done discussing here but am still enjoying the read. Please Read the Actual Bill, you all may learn something despite all the Ads and what not.
http://le.utah.gov/~2007/bills/hbillenr/hb0148.htm
I will probably vote against, but first I had better register to vote! I don't like that they will be taking the money out of the general fund which pays for my father's salary. Why pay private schools with public money?
Both sides have been less than totally honest, but when all was said and done the passage of ref 1 will be a good thing. It doesn't do the damage that is claimed such as take 429M out of public schools. (Half truth, it does take 429 out but puts over 700 back in) This whole thing is statutory and not constitutional. Changes and adjustments should expect to be made. The biggest thing for me is that parents will invest more money. And the private sector can build many of the new builds that will be needed to house the 145,000 new students that are coming into the schools in the next 10 years. I think it will help reduce the impact on our taxes. I have a lot of other issues, but this will do for now.
I honestly cannot even believe that this is a debate. Where has a government run monopoly ever been successful? America is the greatest nation in the world because of the free market. Competition is the only way that our schools will improve. John Stossel is absolutely correct (as he usually is). Money is not the problem, and it never has been.
Also, where are the parents? If your kid is in high school and can't read, you are a bad parent and it is time to pull your head out and get involved. (I am referring to the 20/20 piece)
It is sad how people are influenced by the stupid commercials. Once again, just like with fluoride, people will vote for or against a particular issue without looking into it.
Im all about tax breaks for the wealthy....10% of the people pay 90% of the taxes, thats not fair is it? If you think that the entire community benefits from public education imagine how much better it would be if there was some competition out there for the awful public schools. And if you are a teacher that opposes ref 1, I have to question your intelligence...example: If there were more than just public schools, there would be competition, thus higher level of education, thus higher pay for teachers. The TRUTH is that teachers that are opposed to ref 1 are scared that it might pass and they might lose kids in the class and then lose funding for the schools....Bottom line is teachers do not know anything about how capitalism works because they are so focused on trying to re-distribute the wealth that they don't have the right to. Its too bad that the best argument is that it will take money away from schools and that the rich are evil...well how about the poor are lazy? the glass is half full on this one. If you are opposed, then you can't come to my birthday party...JOE ROBERTS...p.s. I have read the whole ref, and the math makes sense, but what the hell do i know, im an overtaxed neo-con.
It's too bad those who keep calling people who are opposed to Ref 1 "stupid". I guess there were more stupid people than smart voting yesterday. It's great to have opinions on a subject, but grow up and keep your comments simple and to the point without bashing others for theirs. Passing judgements and point blank questioning someone's intelligence is what is uneducated....not the teachers.
To: Anonymous Coward
I didn't see anyone in this thread call anyone else stupid other than in reference to the 20/20 clip so who are you referring to?
I would encourage you to find a discussion where names are being called and post your comments there.
Though I guess I did call you a coward, but you deserved that for posting anonymously, coward.
How about this anonymous, the next election cycle (if you have kids) take a look at the test scores for utah and then take a look at your bank account. After you realize that your kids are still stupid, and you are still poor, you can be happy that you and all of the liberal, Ted Kennedy loving educators that hate freedom, and love socialism all voted against referendum 1 and maybe then you will realize that you yourself are the stupid one....JOE ROBERTS...ps stupid is not a bad word in my house.
Okay Anonymous you won, good job. What will change? The school system won't, your school teaching parents will still have their non accountability jobs and their life long benefit package, which they will always continue to complain about. They'll still get three months off each year, time enough to take you to Disneyland . And you will always be a coward. And Ted will always be the murdering coward he is. Clinton\Kennedy 2008
And please remember your the one who started the name calling.
The nice thing about Ref 1 pass or not I couldn't give a crap. It's you it's turned into the person your stuck with.
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